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The New Nationalist Perspective: Tom Sunic & Mark Weber

June 30, 2009

In a very spirited conversation Mark Weber, and Tom Sunic are talking about modern historiography, which in many instances has become delusional. What we are witnessing in modern history writing is a paranoid form of new ‘civic religion’ and a classical form of hagiography – which in fact hides disturbing secrets. This is an indispensable show of significant academic value.

13 MB / 32 kbps mono / 0 hour 57 min.

Contact Tom:
tom.sunic hotmail.com

Comments

27 Responses to “The New Nationalist Perspective: Tom Sunic & Mark Weber”

  1. jimbo on June 30th, 2009 11:28 pm

    dwn/ld doesn’t appear to be working (?)

  2. Mike Conner on July 1st, 2009 12:38 am

    Sorry about that. Fixed.

  3. thoght on July 1st, 2009 7:12 am

    Great show, I enjoy these shows. I believe if more American WNs leaders thought like Tom Sunic America’s WN movement would be in much better shape.

  4. thoght on July 1st, 2009 8:54 am

    The Collective individualism that Webber and Sunic speak of only effects whites, and it doesn’t matter which Western nation whites live in.

    What I mean by that is that whites don’t form a social cellectivism, or we are not allowed too. White Americans for example are called racist by the media, and any time we try and form a social collectivism we’re attacked and called wrongfully haters.

    Blacks and Hispanics on the other hand can form a collective natural social sructure, they can promote their community, history which favors them, can hold gatherings on their history, have heroes to look up to, have national history month, bet, national organizations, all of which promote black people and keep them united. They’re encouraged to stay together and be united, by the same group who does everything to oppose our unity.

    Whites have a servere collective individualism because whites not only do they not get a chance to promote their own natural instincts, but they are tought that doing so is wrong, they are tought history which doesn’t favor them, they have no national outlets, organizations, or public and media support, and are really denied any form of unity. Most of this because of media, government, and schooling.

    Whites have been denied unity, so what has happened is that whites look to other forms of social collectivism.

    Many whites to scared to be called racist and don’t want to deal with marginalization, these whites want to be part of a social community, so they then join left-wing socialist organizations which they can be a part of without being criticized, and called names. Or they join pusedo-Conservative groups, that allow them to blow off some steam. It’s an endless created and controlled cycle for them. When they feel safe accept social norms they become liberals. When they start to feel something is wrong they are pushed to become Neo-cons and pushed into the controlled opposition.

    Left-wing and Neo-conism alternatives for whites are the only alternatives for most whites, they can’t come out and say their proud like blacks can, because they’ve been tought it’s wrong and just not acceptable. Even though deep down inside they know it’s actually rights. Some whites having been tought these concepts, have made themselves believe in a false multi-racial utopia. Even though they know somehing is not right about it, I know, because I use to be one of those whites.

    The collective individualism among whites is that most whites don’t have the stomach to deal with the fight, because to them the fight is to hard, and that just laying back and accepting the norms and not caring is better then having to deal with the pressures of being outside those norms. The norms for many whites have to be brooken and un-locked before they can rebuild their natural colletive socialbeing, as has been seen with the BNP in the UK.

    Even with the sucess of the BNP many whites still won’t get active because their still held hostage to the media, history lies, government, and current way things are done along with the current anti-white social structure. The bigger the BNP gets the more whites will join. The only reason the left got where it’s got is because of laziness on our part, our side not organizing, media blackouts, and the lefts activism to change the way the government and schooling, along with the social norm structure operates.

    Deep inside every white is love and pride for their own blood. Even the most brainwashed still have pride and love for their people. We just have to reach them. Many of them because of being tought white nationalism is bad, will automatically turn their listening devices off, and their brain will automatically redirect them to what they’ve been tought about white nationalism, that being nationalism is bad, and anything a white nationalist say’s must be a lie or bad for them.

    It’s like an Angel” and “Demon” whispering in each ear.

    Demon say’s: “WNs are bad remember the multi-racial Utopia you see on tv, the peace, no harassments, no name calling such as being called racist, you are respected, your views if they confirm to the establisment will be accepted, and social norms.

    You accept what you have, a job, a house, a liberal social community, everything you need for this life, your self, not your community and people is more important. Follow us, your race won’t be harmed, join us, sell your nation out, mixs, break social norms, your race is unimportant, what you need to be doing is promoting non-whites, it’s acceptable, life is easy, your nation means nothing, we all live together blacks, hispanics. Your not dieing out, your just bleding in, so theres no point in fighting it, we’re the human race, after all we’re all the same. Do it, do it, it will be utopia if you just do it and follow along”.

    On the other hand you have an Angel saying: “But what about your people, family, blood, realistically there is no such thing as a human race. What about your real community? Don’t you want whats best for your people? The struggle may be tough, and may cost you dearly at first, but in the long run it’s best for your kids, your people, and your legacy as a race, and best for the continuity of your blood line. Money, house, cars, cloths, current social structure mean nothing if your people are being ruined.”

    Sadly most whites won’t listen to the little Angel whispering in their ear begging them to do what they feel deep down in side is right.

    Why won’t our people listen to the Angel? Well because the Angel is a quarter of an inch big, the Demon is 20 feet tall with a loud and strong voice, full of utopian promises that will be delivered if they just lay back and accept norms.

    The Angel may only be a quater of an inch big but that Angel is in all whites, and it’s there inside of us, the Demon hovers around us in the media, schools, government, social norms, we see it and it effects us currently, and in everyday life.

    The Angel is just a tiny little peice of our heart which use to be all of our heart, it shrunk. The little Angel is blocked out by what we’ve been tought, what surrounds us, the norms. The only way to give that Angel a bigger voice is for whites who still have a big hearts to stand up and speak louder, most whites will only accept the norms. White nationalist have to be seen, heard, our image has to reflect the total opposite of the opposition. We have to make whites think again, help them remove the falsity infront of their eyes, to many whites are distracted by gagets and oher things.

    Whites need to know that there are people like us ready to free them from continued bondage and mental, physical, and emotional enslavement.

    It’s tough folks, but it has to be done, and it starts with the people who are already free mentally, not physically yet, because we still live in an environment physically and mentally against us and our people. But the people mentally free have to stand up three times longer while dangling a bucket of water and spoon with an egg, while standing on molten lava, climbing up a mountian. Physically standing up will be tough, but because we’re mentally free, we can think for ourselves, the more we free the minds of our prople, the less this struggle is for you. When we do free our people from this kind of enslavement, the struggle will never be over, it can, for if we ever lay down after we won some battles, the anti-whites will all over us again.

  5. HellenicNationalist on July 1st, 2009 4:13 pm

    What happened to the play button thats on the previous podcasts?

  6. Mike Conner on July 2nd, 2009 1:03 pm

    That’s fixed too.

  7. dansk on July 3rd, 2009 8:38 am

    Many good points from thoght. And the problem is that only those who agree will read it – and a few enemies, but not the millions of average people out there. Subversion had succeeded in public; right is wrong and good is bad. Conformity with the cultural hegemony of subversion is required or you are EVIL. One way to fight is to ridicule, and that is not very difficult, since the views held by the left are obviously stupid, and as you point out average people often know that something is wrong but don´t want to go outside conformity. I am Scandinavian (don´t sue me, sue my old English teacher) but this phenomenon seems to exist everywhere White people live in this wold. But it is probably just a coincident or I would be a conspiracy nut. No, it IS a coincident. I love Big Brother.

  8. Listener on July 3rd, 2009 11:24 am

    I have listened to half of the program right now.

    The view of revisionism today amongst general public makes little sense. How can you work with history without revising? Historical work has revisionism as a central factor, you revise things all the time, meaning you look at it again. By outlawing revisionism, which cannot be seen as anything but an act of totalitarianism, countries like Germany, Austria, France… they have basically outlawed historical study. History is an exclusive right of the “state”, and it is illegal to have anything to do with it for the people. That is what it boils down to.

    As far as American individualism, there obviously was a common sense of identity amongst white Americans in the 20′s, why is it lost? Why do people not have an ethnical awareness?

    I also agree about that the specialization today is an issue, I remember when i was 13-14 years old, and our teacher in history, geography and social subjects told us about the need of specialization. I at once felt repulsed by such a reasoning. Sure, a person cannot do everything, but why not encourage different things. In history, putting things together, the bigger picture is important.

  9. Listener on July 3rd, 2009 11:52 am

    I also have to add about WW2, I do not hold a certain side as “good” and one “bad”. There were many guilty regardless of their stance and side in the war. But why cant we talk about the over ten million Germans killed before, during and after the war. Why is it not talked about the countless of German women and girls brutalized by the same people who had slaughtered tens of millions across Eastern Europe (and many amongst whom were given a free pass to the US by the US government of the time).

    Unfortunately there is a marxist lingo flowing in our countries; “Quisling”, “Nazi” bla bla bla. I am the first to condemn anyone who has done something bad no matter who they are and what their stance and associations are, and I expect others to do the same. But by just making this into an “us against them” thing instead of looking at, again, the big picture, as Dr. Sunic said; it can only lead to bad things.

    Just some thoughts.

    Thanks to you both. And the IHR does indeed do great work, not because I agree with everything Ive read from them, but because they dare bring issues to the forefront, they encourage discussion, dialogue. They encourage a civilized and free approach when others dont. Even if I dont agree with them I know that my take is allowed as well. That is not the case with some of our “free” countries.

  10. Luis Magno on July 5th, 2009 1:04 am

    I am baffled by Dr. Sunic’s continuing use and tolerance of the Orwellian concept of Whiteness. As a European he should know better. He has criticized the use of the term “nationalism” yet continues to use it in the title of his program! He has said several times that he wants to stay “above the fray”. What fray and to what end?

    The European cultural-political situation is comparable to the American situation in some important ways but we need an accurate word-map to facilitate clear communication and rational discourse if we are to benefit from the European experience.

    “Nationalism” and “ethnical awareness” are replaced by “ethno-racialism” and “ethno-racial awareness”, respectively. The dysfunctional European-American mixed-ethnic mentality is fixated on race and ignores culture. The explicit dual nature of the concept of ethno-racialism fills an important gap in the European-American lexicon.

    Ethnicity fully embraces culture. Culture is one of the four cornerstones of public secular Western thought. The other three are politics, economics and socialism. Culture in turn embraces all fields of knowledge including but not limited to history, the arts, the sciences, politics, etc., including religion. Culture is the created and creating spirit of the human mind, heart and intellect.

    The invocation of Whiteness in England may be appropriate in England, I don’t know, but its invocation in the United States has disastrous consequences. Whiteness is a 17th-century Anglo-Saxon racial supremacist implant. It is kept alive today in European Americans by European-American ignorance and by hostile alien forces intent on destroying the United States.

    Americans declared their cultural independence from Great Britain in 1776 yet today’s European Americans cling to the Orwellian concept of Whiteness as if their lives depended on it. The only thing threatened is an Orwellian White identity, a fanciful notion of who and what European Americans are as human beings. As long as they continue to cling to this Orwellian identity they will be unable to discuss race, ethnicity and culture in a rational manner.

    Continental Europeans are undergoing the stresses and strains of a forced supra-nationalist collectivization from above and an unwelcome intrusive immigration and miscegenation from below. An analogous situation confronts European Americans. The difference is that European Americans are paralyzed in inaction as they battle historical demons in the dark recesses of their “individualist” minds and inside the claimed protective cocoons of their alleged “white” skins and just can’t seem to get their ethnic and mixed-ethnic acts together.

    Unless properly understood the continental European meta-language of political and cultural discourse is poison to the emerging revolutionary European-American ethno-racial spirit. The Orwellian notion of Whiteness must be categorically discarded and buried if European America is to survive the ongoing world financial-economic disintegration and imminent descent into total darkness, a new Dark Age, inside the United States.

    Christopher Columbus is best known today by his anti-historical name. But regardless of that fact the celebration of his world-transforming discovery of the Americas on October 12, 1492 is a first step in the creation of a politically unified European-American ethno-racial identity that competes on level ground with the aggressive hate-filled agenda of the satanic cabalistic forces arrayed against us.

  11. Listener on July 5th, 2009 11:22 am

    Luis Magno:

    His name was Eric Blair. Not Orwell anything.

    Ethnicity does not neccessarely embrace everything as far as culture, “politics” etc.

    I do not personally like to throw around the word the politics, as it is just about the mechanism of politics. I am interested in society as such, and social processes whether they can be called poiitics or not.

    I do not see what you are talking about when you are writing that “Whiteness is a supremacist implant”. Get to the point instead of being so abstract.

    We are talking here about nationalism but especially racial nationalism. Every peoples right to decide over themselves and their future, depending on their needs and what they find important. And the importance of considering the reality of ethnicity therein.

  12. Mary O on July 6th, 2009 2:13 am

    “Whiteness is a 17th-century Anglo-Saxon racial supremacist implant. ”

    Anglo-Saxons are not the only White ethnic group; but rather they constitute only one of the many ethnic groups that historically created England and Great Britain. Other groups include the Britons, the Romans, the Danes, the Norwegians (Vikings), the Normans, the Welsh, the Scot, the Scot-Irish and the Irish. Anglo-Saxons (and everyone else) acknowledged the superiority of Western European and all Aryan societies generally, but they surely didn’t need to “implant” a perfectly obvious fact.

    The term “White” aptly describes people of Indo-Aryan descent. Perhaps you are just overly “concerned” over hurting some nonwhite group’s supposed sensitivities. You almost imply that merely leaving a group outside of Whiteness is a form of cruelty; but the truth is that nonwhites don’t care. For example, the Chinese actually see themselves as superior, and the Muslims are planning to take over our countries. Our focus should be on important things like truth, justice and a future for White children; and not on being phonily nice all the time.

  13. Listener on July 6th, 2009 7:23 pm

    Mary O:

    Well I certainly dont believe that Whites/Aryan whatever term you use are “superior”. That is not why I am concerned about these issues.

    Instead of using such old scaremongering tendencies focus on mantra thinking, like the people at BUGS would say.

  14. Listener on July 6th, 2009 7:26 pm

    Let me clarify that I certanly think that Europeans and European groups have certain qualities which should not be shunned. But that is not what i base nationalism and racial nationalism on, the reasons for those things are of more practical nature.

  15. Anti on July 6th, 2009 8:40 pm

    Jew Michael Medved has recently released a book “The 10 Big Lies about America” which features commentary on the following “myth”:

    Myth: The Founders intended a secular, not Christian, nation.

    Fact: Even after ratifying the Constitution, fully half the state governments endorsed specific Chris?tian denominations. And just a day after approving the First Amendment, forbidding the establishment of religion, Congress called for a national “day of public thanksgiving and prayer” to acknowledge “the many signal favors of Almighty God.”

    Anyone else find this kind of intriguing?

    Perhaps Jews get some kind of dividend out of lie that the US was established as a Christian nation, by Christian me.

    At the same time they are no doubt thankful that the US was established as a Secular nation, by Secular, if not Anti-Christian men.

    “Oh vey, save us from the pogrom of the Christian States of Old Europe!”

    Perhaps Jews feel they are losing control over Conservative Christians who are becoming more aware of the deeper flaws the current system and that a thorough rejection of the entire status quo is required.

  16. Mary O on July 6th, 2009 11:41 pm

    Listener: “Well I certainly dont believe that Whites/Aryan whatever term you use are “superior”. That is not why I am concerned about these issues.”

    We advanced far ahead of the rest of the world. Look at our science, our art, our tech, our music, our architecture, our medicine and our literature. We are also healthier, stronger and better athletes. We alone create orderly peaceful happy societies. Perhaps you think the “aw, shucks, it’s nothing” routine is just so nice. This obsession with being nice is immature.

    “Instead of using such old scaremongering tendencies focus on mantra thinking, like the people at BUGS would say.”

    Scaremongering? Who is scared of what? Mantra thinking? Like “ohmmm” … What you need is to wake up and admit the plain truth. “The truth will set you free.” The truth is that our societies are in fact better and more productive than nonwhite societies.

    Our societies are uniquely peaceful and happy. An all-White neighborhood is just so much more joyful to live in. Whites are simply more self-controlled and less violent than nonwhites. We are being cheated of that happy experience of daily life in a White community which is natural to us and which is our birthright. Since when is a multicultural society in any way natural? We were meant to live happy peaceful lives in stable communities of other Whites.

  17. Listener on July 7th, 2009 10:38 am

    I do get your point, what I do not think is beneficial for us is that terminology and lingo. Nor is it the reason why I am a nationalist. Again, nationalism in my opinion applies to all whatever they find important.

    Who is to say what is “more advanced”, or better etc. Every people has their view of what is important, what is wealth for them. I agree with that our accomplishments and proficiencies are due to certain qualities we have developed, and if you read some of my earlier posts on this site, you’l see that I strongly hold not only that we have tendencies to develop different preferences, but that different races simply possess certain qualities, abilities which others respectively simply do not. It might be relativelly detail things, but with big implications for the whole picture.

    Basically you do not have to go there and deal with all the issues that arise by taking such an approach. Our cause can be motivated in much simpler ways than that.

    I am a nationalist, not a chauvinist. I do not need to view myself as better than others to justify my right to survive and live based on what I find important.

    We might have certain qualities which I recognize as useful and highly held by me, as we should, but I do not think it is good to view yourself as somehow objectively better than others, I am not going to put myself into a position where I need to argue with someone what is important and by what Im going to judge who is better. You are putting yourself ultimately in an unneccessary position, do you see?

    If you have followed Dr. Sunic work, or if you are just familiar with the communism in eastern Europe. You will know that there was a saying in these nations that “everyone is replaceable”, or rather; “no one is indispensable”. Of course, that is pure nonsense (maybe it gave some sick kind of comfort to what was done by some under their command). You cannot just replace any person anyhow, and the very same goes for groups, you cannot simply replace a unique group at will. And that is more than enough to motivate consideration of ethnical reality in social processes.

    The only result of the current process is that unique European groups, and non-Europeans in some cases, are facing literal genocide, destruction of the traits defining them. And for what? Just to eventually differentiate in new groups, with the current ones never having got a chance. Throwing away tens of thousands of years for nothing. In an enforced matter, without any discussion and/or debate allowed before these decisions.

    Ethnical reality needs to be considered, ignoring any part of reality is bad, and the implication here is that numerous European peoples ethnical existence is at stake. It is not at its core an issue of being better, it is a matter of practicality on so many levels that Im not going to list them. But of course, we are going to lose things of our society, what matters to us most is risking to be lost with us, naturally.’

    I had this discussion with a British and he actually told me, I guess he realized he couldnt argue my very points anymore, and I do not know if he actually holds this nonsense or if he just “had to stand up against this “eveeeel racist”", so he told me that; “So what, I do not care if British go extinct… I have better things to worry about bla bla bla”.

    Basically thats what was uttered in its essence. Of course others do not buy it, and I wondered what could possibly be more important than something so fantastic. But nevertheless, I replied in essence with; “fine, at least that is your concious decision to not care if your unique characteristics go extinct forever”. What bugs me just as much about what is going on as its results, is that this is not a concious decision to have our people die, it is not allowed to be. It cannot be good to ignore any part of reality, I do not want a society built on myths.

    Of course, we know very well that if you are from a European nation of choice, you are expected to actively commit destruction, genocide, of yourself, to be acceptable. If you do not do so, if you refuse to want that to happen and let your people die, you are absurdly labeled as “hateful”. Hateful for not wanting your own people to face destruction.

    The next time someone asks you why you hold racially nationalist views, you do not need to go on about what qualities we have that you appreciate. Try asking the antagonist if they would think if it was ok to forcedly replace the people of Tibet, the Japanese or some African people. Ask if they think they have a right to refuse something like that.

    Sorry if this looks a bit unstructured, its because it is. I hope it somehow encapsulates my thinking. Or part of it, in the issue.

  18. Mary O on July 8th, 2009 12:58 am

    “Who is to say what is “more advanced”, or better etc. Every people has their view of what is important, what is wealth for them …”

    If these nonwhites merely had different values, then what exactly draws them into our societies? Wouldn’t they love their mud huts and rice patties as much as we love our civilization? Those few nonwhites who have developed respectable cultures on their own do not come flooding here as immigrants; but rather prefer and cultivate separation.

    Separation is the only solution. Without diversity, every ordinary day would feel like a day at some exclusive enclave or resort; we could relax, leave our doors unlocked, and enjoy the companionship of other Whites. Children and the elderly would be safe and protected. And, think of the money we would save! All the money wasted on special ed, welfare, prisons, Affirmative Action and multi-lingualism could all be spent on ourselves and our families.

  19. Listener on July 8th, 2009 8:46 am

    This is more than about our lifes, it is about our very long-term survival and the continued cultivation of our traits.

    I dont like using the word diversity as our antagonists use it, there is nothing diverse in mixing everyone together, it is anti-diversity, leading to destruction of true diversity.

    I understand those benefits, but even if that was not the case, I would still not allow ourselves to be flooded. If my nation was poor at a time, I would not like it to be flooded by Japanese just because they bring some resources. There are more important things for me at at least than that. Therefore in that sense that reasoning does not hold up. When you think about it, it is more fundamental than those issues.

    Anyhow, I cannot say I disagree with your arguments being relevant to whites, and that they are factors which need consideration. However, it is only part of the truth and reason why we need racial nationalism.

    As far as aa and other anti-white discriminatory practices, It is obvious that needs to be reacted against. I find massive immigration much worse than say foreign aid (which I do not believe should be enforced by a state anyhow).

    A big part of this problem is created due to the very myth that everyone is the same, and alike nonsense. It’s by founding society on such lies, that problems are created in the first place, by not having a truthful and honest lookout on these issues. It is mainly an issue amongst our unawakened people, who actually believe that all people develop the same preferences, that all people can develope the same societies. For example; such reasoning is often used for some sorts of foreign aid. Naturally, you cannot export wealth, wealth is the result of a people, a people can only develop its own wealth. Not to add that again wealth does not hold the same meaning for all people. Further, that we do not have the same abilities in general is not something I need to point out. Third world immigration is even more awkward a phenomena, importing a fraction of Nigerians to our nations is sure as hell going to affect us, but it will hardly improve the situation in Nigeria now, will it :S .

    Other peoples views of this aside, this is not about how other peoples see it, it is about our own people that need to be awakened and understand these things. Look at the expressions of our society in arts, recreation, produces, science. We develop different preferences than other races. If nothing else, Our own people need to realize that when push comes to shove every people has to develop their own wealth.

    What you write is largely true in essence, I do not object to that. and rest assured amongst other races they get it. But we do not need to see ourselves as objectively better or put ourselves in that situation to have to argue becasue of that, why and how we are better, which is an endless and unneccessary discussion that will always change. We can claim our right to self-determination and life without needing to assert that we are better. We have a right to protect what is dear to us and our unique people, having developed over tens of thousands of years, is too fantastic to throw away. End of discussion.

    As far as non-whites holding to these same myths, they are quick to jump to whining about why their nations are not helped bla bla bla. I do not blame them. It is tribal thinking. It works on a tribal level, but it does not work in a larger scale in complex society. It can only be accomplished by denying people their democratic self rule and force them to give aid to something they do not neccessarely endorse. Such issues and other ones, such as that wealth actually is something contineous in a society, are not considered by these people. It works in a tribe but not in a large society. But that shouldnt be our concern, the concern is our own peoples awakening.

    I simply do not think that we will awaken our people on the basis that we are better than others. We need to appeal to something more fundamentally natural which our antagonists can never; consideration of our peoples ethnical existence, its further development and everything it entails.

  20. Luis Magno on July 9th, 2009 8:15 am

    Listener: His name was Eric Blair. Not Orwell anything.

    LM: George Orwell was a pen name. “The adjective Orwellian describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society”. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian.

    Listener: Ethnicity does not neccessarely embrace everything as far as culture, “politics” etc.

    LM: For my purposes it does and, yes, necessarily so. Ethnicity embraces all aspects of human experience. What aspects would you exclude from consideration and why?

    Listener: I do not personally like to throw around the word the politics, as it is just about the mechanism of politics. I am interested in society as such, and social processes whether they can be called poiitics or not.

    LM: Your focus may be sociology. I choose to focus on history and culture with the goal of promoting European-American ethno-racialism (not some sort of Orwellian “racial nationalism”) and the knowledge of our EA and European ancestral heritages. The broader aim is to create a viable national political space where European Americans can openly discuss issues of national and ethno-racial survival without being tarred “white racists”. Besides sociology and culture there is thus also a need to discuss politics and economics, the two other pillars of rational secular discourse.

    Listener: I do not see what you are talking about when you are writing that “Whiteness is a supremacist implant”. Get to the point instead of being so abstract.

    LM: Whiteness is a racial supremacist [mind-control] implant. I hope that helps clear it up.

    Listener: We are talking here about nationalism but especially racial nationalism. Every peoples right to decide over themselves and their future, depending on their needs and what they find important. And the importance of considering the reality of ethnicity therein.

    LM: I am an American as I believe most others here are and in an American socio-political context “racial nationalism” is either an oxymoron or treasonous. There is one American nationalism and many American ethno-racialisms. European Americans are the majority ethno-racial group in the United States.

    LM: American nationalism dates back to the Declaration of 1776 and to the Preamble of 1787 however weakly it may be grounded in 400-years of historical myth-making, half truths and outright lies surrounding the issues of genocide, slavery, conquest and empire, and however divided Americans may be today over issues of ethno-racial group rights and political parity within an American nationalist (or nation-state) framework that preserves the Union.

    LM: I am an American nationalist. I am not a European-American nationalist, much less a “white nationalist” or any other kind of nationalist. I want ethno-cultural sovereignty for all ethno-racial groups residing in the United States including, and most importantly, the European Americans. I do not argue for political, social and economic sovereignty as that would entail breaking up the United States into several countries.

    LM: The reality is that European Americans are more in need of cultural sovereignty than are the minority groups (except for the Jews). Yet EAs tend to be clueless precisely on issues of culture and of cultural sovereignty. They are obsessively hung up on Orwellian concepts of “whiteness” and “racial superiority”.

    American nationalism has nothing to do with “racial” nationalism. Ad hoc concepts of nationalism such as “racial” and “white” nationalism avoid a serious discussion of ethno-cultural sovereignty, and specifically, of European-American ethno-cultural sovereignty within an American nationalist or nation-state context. “Racial nationalism” is either an oxymoron, treasonous or worse.

  21. Luis Magno on July 9th, 2009 9:45 am

    Mary O: “Whiteness is a 17th-century Anglo-Saxon racial supremacist implant. ”

    LM: Whiteness is a 17th-century Anglo-Saxon racial supremacist [mind-control] implant.

    Mary O: Anglo-Saxons are not the only White ethnic group; but rather they constitute only one of the many ethnic groups that historically created England and Great Britain. Other groups include the Britons, the Romans, the Danes, the Norwegians (Vikings), the Normans, the Welsh, the Scot, the Scot-Irish and the Irish.

    LM: The Anglo-Saxon culture is at the core of English culture which is at the core of British culture which is at the core of British-American culture which is at the core of European-American culture. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t discard the unworkable and outdated parts.

    Mary O: Anglo-Saxons (and everyone else) acknowledged the superiority of Western European and all Aryan societies generally, …

    LM: These societies are dominated today by an alien race. European peoples the world over are losing their will to survive. Those are signs of inferiority not of superiority. World-extended European civilization’s historical evolution parallels Christianity’s evolution. Our destiny as European Americans is linked to the destiny of Christianity and its Orwellian relationship to an arguably superior Jewish race.

    Mary O: … but they surely didn’t need to “implant” a perfectly obvious fact.

    The idea of the racial superiority of “whites” had a practical purpose at the time of the founding of the English colonies. It justified black slavery. We did away with slavery so lets now do away with its justification.

    Mary O: The term “White” aptly describes people of Indo-Aryan descent. Perhaps you are just overly “concerned” over hurting some nonwhite group’s supposed sensitivities.

    Not at all. I am no longer even concerned about offending “whites”.

    Mary O: You almost imply that merely leaving a group outside of Whiteness is a form of cruelty;

    That’s a stretch. Would you narrow it down for me? You appear to be justifying the continuing oppression of “non-white” groups. It is payback time for many non-EA groups and EAs are in a very weak bargaining position. It is time to invoke the Golden Rule. By conceding political parity and ethno-cultural rights to non-EA groups we concede those same rights to ourselves. Do unto others… while there is still time.

    Mary O: but the truth is that nonwhites don’t care.

    Non-EAs have been on the political ascendance for decades. They are more organically self-defined and better organized politically than EAs. EAs are the most mind-controlled and mind-manipulated ethno-racial group in the United States. The Anglo-Saxon Eastern seaboard elites are in a class of their own. As a group they are the favored shabbos goyim.

    Mary O: For example, the Chinese actually see themselves as superior, and the Muslims are planning to take over our countries.

    That may be so but there is always the dark side. Americans, for example, trumpet Manifest Destiny before the world but are unwilling to acknowledge the dark side of that Destiny. In the long run it is a fatal mistake for an ethno-racial group to make. Its victims have not forgotten. Genocide(1607), slavery (1619), conquest (1846) and oppression (2009) can have serious blowback consequences. And that is a good reason among others for EAs to organize politically around their common ethno-racial, ancestral, cultural and historical heritage while they are still the numerical majority.

    Mary O: Our focus should be on important things like truth, justice and a future for White children;

    Truth, justice and a future for European-American children.

    Mary O: and not on being phonily nice all the time.

    I am a genuinely nice person and glad of it.

  22. Listener on July 9th, 2009 11:15 am

    I didnt read through that, but as far as Whiteness in ethnical sense. You are suggesting then that it has been implanted by anti-whites basically, as something bearing the connotation of “supremacist”. And that thus, Europeans before that did not use White to refer to themselves?

    I am not sure if this is correct. I think that white was used especially when encountering other races and having a need to distinguish those general large differences. But I am unsure about that. In either case we should not allow it to connote such things.

    Luis Magno wrote…

    “”I am an American nationalist. I am not a European-American nationalist, much less a “white nationalist” or any other kind of nationalist. I want ethno-cultural sovereignty for all ethno-racial groups residing in the United States including, and most importantly, the European Americans. I do not argue for political, social and economic sovereignty as that would entail breaking up the United States into several countries.”"

    Ok, thanks for clarifying. Do you really think this is viable, do you then support peoples right to decide over their own communities, segragation?

    Lets not forget that the US was already several countries in practice. The different states before the war between the states, was made up of more or less sovereign states whereas the central US state was like a foreign embassy you sent. representatives to. Is the current US viable? Is a multiracial state viable at all?

    I doubt it. But I agree, I think all people have the same rights as we do, to decide over themselves. But I do not hold that European Americans should share a state with non-European Americans. The founders of the US, like Jefferson, explicitly opposed it writing that, and I paraphrasing so dont quote him by this:

    “All people are born with equal rights, at the same time it holds true that by nature there are differences that can never be undone. And the two (Europeans and Negroid Africans in this case) cannot live under the same government.”

    In either case, I do not agree with you about cultural issues. First of all what is culture, again. Parts of it can be changed. Our race, it cannot be changed that easily, it has taken tens of thousands of years to develop.

    I am a racial nationalism and think that the RACIAL factor does NEED to be taken into consideration in democratic social processes. It is not today and it has consequences.

    Racial Nationalism is not an oxymoron, it is Nationalism where Race is considered an important factor.

  23. Luis Magno on July 13th, 2009 8:29 am

    The following thoughts were triggered by the above discussions.

    The Whiteness cultural meme was implanted in the English colonies by their Anglo-Saxon overlords at the time of the introduction of slavery in 1619 at Jamestown, Virginia in order to make slavery palatable by rationalizing the enslavement of Blacks as being in the “natural” order of things.

    I am for the self-determination for all peoples, all races, all ethnies. In the beginning of their conquest of the Americas the Spanish enforced a separation of the races while culturally assimilating the Indians with the help of the Church. It worked but increasing miscegenation inevitably followed. Today in Ibero-America the majority of the population is mixed-race. By contrast, physical genocide, the British policy toward the indigenous peoples of the Americas, also “worked”.

    The multi-racial and multi-ethnic nature of the US is the result of four centuries of genocide, slavery, conquest, oppression and cultural genocide, the dominant themes of empire. Granting all ethno-racial groups cultural sovereignty would create the necessary psychological space for each group to begin laying the ground work for cultural separation which in turn can lead to political separation followed by social separation and finally economic separation and full sovereignty. We would, in effect, be starting the process of ending the Empire’s agenda by reversing the imperial trends that got us into the current racial mess in the first place.

    The US is today disintegrating economically. The idea of cultural sovereignty for all ethnoracial groups will likely not catch on until after the disintegration of the US but were it to catch on today it could lead to the preservation of the Union although in a necessarily altered form. The European-American majority appears helpless to prevent the current disintegration. Economic disintegration will likely soon lead to social and political disintegration along ethno-racial and class lines. There is a way, I believe, to ameliorate the catastrophe that is about to befall the nation and pave the way for a less painful transition to a new era whether as one country or several.

    A profound change in consciousness is unlikely to occur within the corridors of power in Washington, D.C. The most likely outcome is a near-term new Dark Age. There is, however, always the possibility of a mass change in consciousness from the ground up. I would like to see that happen within European-American communities leading to a new American Revolution, a Golden Renaissance. Non-EA groups are too busy surviving to initiate the necessary cultural changes leading to a Renaissance. The change must come from the European Americans or not at all.

    Had Thomas Jefferson prevailed perhaps the US would not have taken the road of empire. But the Black problem would still have remained. In some ways the Black “problem” has been ameliorated but the Hispanic “problem” is never addressed except at the edges. If the cultural oppression of Hispanics and the cultural genocide of the Spanish Americans is not addressed it will lead to the violent separation of the American Southwest from the rest of the country. Even if addressed the political breakup of the US will likely still occur but with less violence.

    Certain genetically-determined physical and mental attributes do not change but culture itself changes as it adjusts to changes in the objective material conditions of society. In dealing with inter-racial problems race is sometimes a more important consideration than culture and sometimes the reverse is true. An ethno-racialist consciousness recognizes the changing balance between race and ethnicity.

    If racial separation is to be the future reality for European Americans they must first unite culturally and politically and in other ways around their shared ancestral heritage: ethnic, racial and cultural. Racial separatists don’t seem to understand. Cultural separation is the necessary first step to full sovereignty and to a full-blown physical separation. We live in a multi-racial society and we must start from that reality in a deliberative step by step fashion. Ethno-cultural sovereignty is the necessary first step.

    By identifying as an ethno-racialist I take the racial factor fully into account. That is why I include both ethnicity (one’s ancestral heritage) AND race. Focusing on either to the exclusion of the other is not viable. We need to deal with the current socio-cultural and economic disintegration and the more severe socio-cultural and economic disintegration that we will soon face as a nation as the world’s dollar-based monetary system collapses by this Fall and the world economy enters its second and more destructive phase. We are on the verge of a new Dark Age. Spiritually we are there already. It will soon manifest materially so that all will clearly see it and everybody’s lives will be profoundly affected.

    There is the very positive aspect to cultural separation which American racial nationalists should take into account. Cultural separation, stemming from the granting of cultural sovereignty to all ethno-racial groups, is the necessary first step toward physical and geographical separation. It doesn’t guarantee it but it does create that possibility for European Americans, a possibility that does not exist today because of the lack of cultural and political unity among EAs. The ruling oligarchy fiercely opposes the granting of ethno-cultural sovereignty to European Americans and to minority ethno-racial groups in the US because they rightfully fear an end to their imperial power.

    Melting-pot assimilation is still the ruling paradigm. It hasn’t worked for Blacks, it hasn’t worked for Hispanics, it has been culturally genocidal for Spanish Americans and it is now becoming culturally genocidal for European Americans. There is natural blowback from a European-American (essentially Anglo-Saxon) past of Amerindian genocide, Black slavery, Mexican conquest, Hispanic oppression and Spanish-America cultural genocide. The tables have been turned and today the European Americans, the enforcers of past imperial policy, are themselves under an imperial culturally-genocidal dynamic.

    The United States is today under the rule of an evil and greedy faction of the Judeo-Anglo-Saxon financial, banking and monetary oligarchy. Physical genocide is on their agenda and has been for decades. Reducing the world’s population by two-thirds is the goal. The world economic collapse was planned and then allowed to happen. Alan Greenspan chairman of the Federal Reserve Board was the oligarchy’s point man in that operation. The oligarchy’s New World Order agenda is now being rapidly implemented amidst the growing worldwide chaos with Barack H. Obama as chief facilitator following the previous Commander in Chief’s false-flag 9/11 World Towers operation as the triggering excuse.

  24. Mary O on July 13th, 2009 11:02 pm

    LM: “The Whiteness cultural meme was implanted in the English colonies by their Anglo-Saxon overlords …”

    “Anglo-Saxon” is an historical term relating to the Germanic tribes who invaded the British Isles following the decline of Rome; by the Middle Ages, the Anglo-Saxons no longer existed as a separate and distinct group.

    England = “land of the Angles”

    The English colonies (New England) were primarily inhabited at that time by the English, who were descended anciently of the Angles & the Saxons, and other groups. An “overlord” usually refers to a foreign oppressor. The leadership of England and New England were not culturally distinct from the other English and New Englanders. We speak (for example) of Shakespeare, the English playwright. English is an ethnicity.

    Whiteness is not a cultural meme implanted by any overlords. You underestimate the education level of the people. In big port cities like London, the people were well-aware that other races existed, and they may have even met members of other races (on rare occasion). The people may not have had formal degrees, but ministers, priests and professional educators imparted some level of knowledge; not to mention the fact that those who served in the British navy traveled all around the world. The idea that the people only thought they were White because the government told them so is ridiculous.

  25. Luis Magno on July 14th, 2009 7:28 pm

    The English Anglo-Saxon overlords were overthrown in the Revolution of 1776 if I remember my American history correctly. A new set of overlords soon emerged and they self-defined themselves as, yes, Anglo-Saxons, American Anglo-Saxons. Nothing that I have written disputes the historical facts that you correctly cite. And nothing that you have written disputes the statement about the implantation of the Whiteness mind-control meme.

    Resorting to epithets adds nothing of value to the discussion. My guess is that you were born in England. How long have you lived in the United States?

    There were also “white” slaves. If you are a many-generation American it’s possible that you are descended from some of them. They were commonly referred to as indentured servants.

    With the introduction of the Whiteness mind-control meme “white” slavery was phased out. That simplified discourse and social relations. The word “slave” no longer had to be bandied around. Black and White would do. That was a great benefit as one could then pretend that everything was just honky dory (sp).

  26. Mary O on July 15th, 2009 12:37 am

    The English Anglo-Saxon overlords were overthrown in the Revolution of 1776 if I remember my American history correctly. A new set of overlords soon emerged and they self-defined themselves as, yes, Anglo-Saxons, American Anglo-Saxons. Nothing that I have written disputes the historical facts that you correctly cite. And nothing that you have written disputes the statement about the implantation of the Whiteness mind-control meme.

    “English Anglo-Saxon” is not a meaningful term. The English descended of the Anglo-Saxons and other groups. The true Anglo-Saxons did not exist during the Colonial period. .There were no “overlords” — our leadership was elected. The political leaders of the day were rightly of English descent, since the people were also of English descent.

    Sometimes Latinos use “Anglo” as a substitute for “Anglophone.” They will refer to the Irish as Anglos. LOL

    No doubt individuals may have referred to themselves figuratively as Anglo-Saxons. Similarly, a northern European of today might call himself a Viking meaning that he descended from the Vikings; not that the group is still extant.

    Whiteness is not an implanted meme. Even if there were no British Empire, no US government ever, Whites would still know that they are White. That humans have different races is one of the first facts that children learn about the world. Only people in a state of unimaginable isolation would not know about and identify with one of the human races.

    Resorting to epithets adds nothing of value to the discussion. My guess is that you were born in England. How long have you lived in the United States?

    I didn’t call you any epithets. I was not born in England. I was born in the US. Some of my ancestors were English.

    There were also “white” slaves. If you are a many-generation American it’s possible that you are descended from some of them. They were commonly referred to as indentured servants.

    If a person living in London in 1600 AD, decided to ask their wealthy third cousins to let him accompany them to America, pay for his transport, be responsible for providing a roof over his head, food and all necessities, and then eventually provide a lump sum with which he could purchase a small farm, all in exchange for working for his cousins’ family for 10 years, as a farmhand or other type of worker, his situation would equate to slavery? I don’t think so.

    No doubt all through history you can find individuals were horribly abused, but generally speaking, an indentured servant was not enslaved. He volunteered to make a commitment, which was only temporary, and mutually beneficial. Plus, if a White man decided to just leave, who was going to stop him? They probably only stayed for the sake of family loyalty and friendship, plus payment at the end of the term.

    With the introduction of the Whiteness mind-control meme “white” slavery was phased out. That simplified discourse and social relations. The word “slave” no longer had to be bandied around. Black and White would do. That was a great benefit as one could then pretend that everything was just honky dory (sp).

    You are implying that Whiteness isn’t real, but rather just any “implanted meme.” If we didn’t call ourselves “White,” we would just call ourselves “Indo-Aryans” or “Europeans.” You are also implying that “Black” = slave. Why then after the Civil War, did we outlaw slavery rather than being Black?

  27. Mary O on July 15th, 2009 12:50 am

    BTW: I indicated quotes above with greater than & lesser than symbols but they didn’t show up. Hopefully it is clear where I am quoting Luis Magno’s post directly above my response.

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