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Peter Schaenk 7/30/08 The Unnecessary War

July 30, 2008

THE UNNECESSARY WAR

Peter interviews Mark Weber from the Institute of Historical Review.

In this interview:

  • Peter and Mark discuss WW2 and Pat Buchanan’s new book “The Unnecessary War”
  • Also presented are all the latest news and “This Day In History”

Comments

108 Responses to “Peter Schaenk 7/30/08 The Unnecessary War”

  1. K-Sensor on July 31st, 2008 8:55 am

    “ConCen radio – pacifists and educators are already dead – Ctrl” Includes Control speaking about his appearance on Alex Jones show.
    http://www.conspiracycentral.net:6969/stats.html?info_hash=5abdff88189508bc644f8d73ff1f5f6a3f45bfda

  2. K-Sensor on July 31st, 2008 9:27 am

    I actually like his speech. Not sure if I want anarchy but I see that it’s time for action.

  3. K-Sensor on July 31st, 2008 12:55 pm

    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/31/shenadoah.beating/index.html

    Hows this story. Sid to be a Hate Crime but the Mexican called his friends which turned up and caused to the fight to continue. Now the Whites are blamed with his death, yet he could have walked off and not provoked the proper Americans.

  4. Z.O.G. on July 31st, 2008 1:30 pm

    The head ConMan from ConManCentral on the fat boy Alex Jones Show? LOL

    It just goes to show that the Conspiritards are circling the wagons and closing ranks as they get exposed for the Jew protecting scumbag cowards that they are.

    :-)

  5. roscoe on July 31st, 2008 5:18 pm

    Drudge is reporting that Netanyahoo is angling for power. I always figured he would have to take over before the fireworks start.

  6. K-Sensor on August 1st, 2008 2:28 am

    Sorry I mistook his wording. He said he ‘partook’ in Alex Jones Shows for the 29th and another date, but he really meant he watched them.

  7. K-Sensor on August 1st, 2008 10:02 am

    The guy that stabbed the innocent man and decapitated him on the Canadian bus, was Asian. That’s why we didn’t hear the credentials on main news.

  8. roscoe on August 1st, 2008 6:56 pm

    Shankus–could you give us more on the ‘Red scare’ of Bernays. You surely are not trying to say that there is(and was)not a legitimate Communist menace. Do yo think Sen McCarthy was just a shill of sorts?

  9. David Holloway on August 2nd, 2008 2:46 am

    roscoe is a crypto-Jew, his goal is to lead us back into the failed Catholic church.

  10. David Holloway on August 2nd, 2008 2:47 am

    Shaenk more than likely believes that Senator Joseph McCarty was a crypto-Jew

  11. IzzyP0p on August 2nd, 2008 3:40 am

    Peter, Please do a show on the anthrax letter attacks on Dr. Phillip Zack. I commented on your shankblog site and on your Jul 28 show post comments. One of the best media sites doing investigations into this is here…

    http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/hcourant.html

    There are about a half dozen more, but this story is hot right now judging by all the comments on other mainstream sites. I was surprised to see how many people were calling bs on this story and many people knowing and commenting on Zack and his writing a letter claiming there was soon to be bio attacks perpetrated by a Dr. Assad at ft. detrick. The only problem was, he sent that letter too soon to the FBI. It arrived 2 days before the first anthrax letter, which just happened to be sent to the one photo-journalist who did the cover story on the Bush twins drunk at a Texas bar falling down all over each other. He was the first death and the only person who actually received the actual letter other than the editor of La Voz de Atlan site. His letter was similiar and contained suspicious powder, but when he called the FBI, they ignored him and never even drove 20 minutes to his house t o pick it up. Ironic, considering he was visited by both the DHS and Secret service, for a couple articles exposing Israelis caught red handed attempting to blow up the Mexican Congress in Mexico City. It was actual citizens who were protesting that day who happened to see one of them was strapped. (they both had Glocks, 9 handgrenades, C-4, and detonators._ It was on the front page for two days and then it disappeared from site. Ariel Sharon sent a convoy immediately and these guys were RELEASED a few days later and flown to Israel by Sharon’s aides!
    http://www.aztlan.net/blowup.htm

    Everyone else, Brokaw, Daschle, Leahy, all were ok. Their aids opened the letters. The other victims were postal workers I believe.

  12. roscoe on August 2nd, 2008 12:45 pm

    Sen McCarthy was a great man but he didn’t have everything right.

    http://used.addall.com

    Life And Times Of Joe McCarthy–Reeves

    Assassination of Joe McCarthy–Evans

  13. roscoe on August 2nd, 2008 12:46 pm

    Shankus–Please do a show on Sen McCarthy

  14. Howdy Doody on August 2nd, 2008 3:03 pm

    If I believed Shank disrespected Joe McCarthy, I would know Shank was a false flag POS.

    Show me the meat.

  15. Peter Schaenk on August 2nd, 2008 5:58 pm

    What do we know about the Red Scare of the 1950′s?

    Edward Bernays was hired by the government and saw an opportunity to exacerbate the conflict and keep the US population living in a state of fear as a means to control and manipulate.

    The Jews have used McCarthy the way they use Hitler, as a bogey man to intimidate people who do not follow the party line.

    McCarthy had a Jew / pervert, Roy Cohn as his right hand man, that is never a good sign, especially in light of the way McCarthy was “set up” at the Army-McCarthy hearings.

    Those are some facts you can analyze yourselves over the weekend.

  16. roscoe on August 2nd, 2008 6:12 pm

    I would not compare Hitler and Mc Carthy in this way. Hitler was a willing tool of Illuminati judaics where Sen Mc Carthy was not. He was definitly set up in the Army hearings and did not understand that Cohn was his biggest enemy of all. That Cohn, Hoover and Schine(who owned the Ambassador Hotel when Cohn’s rival Bobby Kennedy was shot there in 1968) were homos was not understood by the Sen.

    I also think the judaics needed a public example of someone who was anti-communist(Cohn) as a propoganda display. Collins Piper thinks The Sen may have been used by the Trotskyites(neo-cons) to attack Stalinists(Demorats).

  17. Z.O.G. on August 2nd, 2008 10:09 pm

    Hey, Roscoe, is your middle initial “P” and your last name “Coltrane”? LOL

    Did you catch those dang Duke boys yet?! LOL

    I hope you get them some day!

  18. David Holloway on August 2nd, 2008 10:12 pm

    I will respond to Peter’s request for a discussion on this issue:

    The reason I call Peter a patriotard is that he attributes Hitler’s rise to power as essentially a foreign creation from outside of Germany. Amazon.com is full of conspiracy books about Wall Street creating the Third Reich and the motive of these books is always to smear corporate America. Now I’m not a Neocon but accusing U.S. corporations such as IBM of being responsible for Adolf Hitler’s rule in Germany is a major leftist argument. You complain about Alex Jones courting leftists but I feel that you yourself are still very comfortable with these leftist paradigms. You’ve only altered it slightly and instead of American corporations you blame American-Jewish bankers for Hitler coming to power.

    When you say that Hitler was funded by Jews I’m certain that you mean foreign Jews (outside of Germany) and you imply that the Jewish bankers were Schiff and Warburg. These same bankers were blamed by right wingers for the rise of the Soviet Union.

    I also think you don’t understand that it wasn’t just the German Nazis who wanted to help the Jews move to Palestine, this same sentiment existed among the right wingers in Poland, Hungary, and Romania. A few years ago I read an interview with an ex-member of the Hungarian Fascist movement which was called The Arrow Cross party, this man said that all Hungarian Fascists supported Zionism because they wanted a Hungary without Jews. Similarly, before WWII the Polish government was doing everything in their power to promote the movement of Polish Jews to Palestine.

    Why did right-wingers/anti-Semites support Zionism? Basically they believed in the integrity of U.S. president Woodrow Wilson’s post WWI idea–the right of self-determination for minorities. After WWI the Zionist leadership declared that the Jewish people were a nation and as such were entitled to “nationhood”, by supporting Zionism these European Fascists took the Jews at their word and said, “If you want a nation then go have it”. I see nothing sinister in those motives.

  19. David Holloway on August 2nd, 2008 10:32 pm

    The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they never know where to stop and they start to lose touch with reality. If you spend enough time searching conspiracy websites you will be told that Hitler was a Jew, Albert Speer was a Jew, Alfred Rosenberg was a Jew, Joseph Goebbels was a Jew, Adolf Eichmann was a Jew, Heinrich Himmler was a Jew, etc..

    This stuff goes on and on until it makes no sense at all. Why would a Nazi who was in reality a “secret Jew” sit there at the Nuremberg Trial and not confess that he was actually a Jew in order to save his life? How could anyone truly believe that a real Jew would be hanged by the Allies as a fake Nazi? This is where conspiracy theorists lose all credibility with the general public, when you’ve left the plane of logic you’ve entered the realm of madness.

  20. David Holloway on August 2nd, 2008 10:43 pm

    roscoe is biased, he refuses to view McCarthy as a Jew tool simply because McCarthy was a Catholic like he is, there are too many biases in these speculations, there is too much picking and choosing. If you don’t like some leader he’s a Jew tool, if you like him he’s not a Jew tool. It lacks any critical standard.

  21. Dietrich on August 3rd, 2008 12:26 am

    One fun McCarthy fact:

    Any time TV or radio talks about him, they always play the clip of him asking someone of they’re a communist, with the person indignantly replying something to the effect of, ‘Sir, have you no shame?’ For leftists, this is one of those few moments of moral indignation that they obviously savor.

    Not so fast. According to papers that came out later, the guy he was asking was indeed being paid by the KGB. McCarthy was merely a last gasp of American patriotism as America transitioned into a ZOG.

  22. Z.O.G. on August 3rd, 2008 1:30 am

    I agree with Dietrich on this one. McCarthy had discovered that basically the entire American government and Hollywood was run by Communists, and this makes perfect sense, because America had been transformed into a Communistic nation during the Great Depression and the 1930′s by the social and economic programs of the Roosevelt(Rosenfelt) administration and his Jewish Communist cabal.

    But unfortunately, it seems that McCarthy was too stupid to realize that the Communist conspiracy that he had uncovered was in fact a Jewish conspiracy. How could he not have noticed that 90% of all the Hollywood and media people that testified before his Congressional committee were Jews? Was he blind?

  23. Dietrich on August 3rd, 2008 1:51 am

    Perhaps not blind, but he certainly did not have what it takes–a dogged determination to name the Jewish agenda at work. This is where we differ from the patriotards. They will go the way of McCarthy, lost and with subsequent generations pissing on their graves. We’re going another way.

    Indeed, Alex Jones is right about the “right White guys” to an extent, but there is no explanation to their actions unless you understand that they are following the Jewish agenda. The Moloch death-cult stuff doesn’t explain anything. It’s the simple explanation at work here–that they know the side their bread is buttered on and they know who owns the media.

    At VoR, we work to bring others over to our side, and to help others understand that it’s no simple restating of the Constitution or religious values that will get us out of this.

  24. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 2:42 am

    The Forum is still waiting to read Dietrichs review of De Revolutionibus. There is nothing anyone can do to ‘get us out of “this” ‘ There is going to be Divine Intervention in 2012 and y2k was just a wormup as all society will be thrown into choas as the date approaches.

  25. Dietrich on August 3rd, 2008 2:51 am

    “The Forum” is going to be waiting a while.

    There will be no “Divine Intervention” unless we start it, else, why even worry about it?

  26. maurice on August 3rd, 2008 4:46 am

    Thank you for cancelling my post. It was rather too big indeed. And I don’t believe in the masonic “libertè”. The forum is yours and you keep the posts you want.

    Again thank you for debunking the masonic (judaic) American Revolution and showing the “founding fathers” pact with the devil.

    David Hollway said:
    “his goal is to lead us back into the failed Catholic church.”

    One has to say that the REAL Catholic Church still exists with his 1960 years of teaching also represented by many Traditional groups, although the terrible changes after the Vatican II council due to years of jewish infiltration (read “The Plot Against the Church by Maurice Pinay – http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/pinay/).

    The Traditional Catholic Church is part constituent of the Old Roman Order praised by Peter Schaenk.

    Where is Christianity? In the protestant sects (judaic inventions)? Or “is in your own heart “as katman says?

    Bernard Lazare went on to point out the role played by Jews in Protestantism:
    “The Reformation in Germany as well as in England was one of those movements when Christianity acquired new force in Jewish sources. The Jewish spirit triumphed with Protestantism.”

  27. maurice on August 3rd, 2008 4:52 am

    “roscoe is a crypto-Jew”

    I guess why this post was not cancelled – people calling names, attacking the messenger instead of the message…

    We as I can see all can be “crypto-jew”, loosing time in fruitless discussions and giving a bad image also to new listeners.

    Peter – better cancel this useless forum. Continue your good show and give us some more ideas (because we have none) as the Speak English. Try to lead a “Peter’s Principle Movement” with the moral guidance of the Old Roman Order Christianity (the way you understand it). You loose time reading this stuff – better use to do more researches.

  28. David Holloway on August 3rd, 2008 5:24 am

    Why has this forum taken such a Pro Catholic turn? Now they are even calling the Protestant Reformation a Judaic plot?

  29. maurice on August 3rd, 2008 6:05 am

    Maybe was not, but the Judaic were very satisfied with it.

  30. maurice on August 3rd, 2008 7:40 am

    But that is not the issue.

    Doesn’t matter if our religion was good and then was greatly infiltrated or if already started in a “jewish style”, WE Christians have to join and start doing something as the time is short.

    What Peter brings up is very good:
    - Speak English
    - Switch off the TV (Bernays great instrument)
    - Control the Internet at home
    - Teach to whites, blacks, yellows, etc. what the Western Civilization brought and show how important are the whites to nature, as the bees, as grain or rice. Without this race life in earth will be very difficult.

  31. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 1:43 pm

    The long post of maurice was not deleted–it is under the Paint It Black Show.

  32. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 2:12 pm

    Mr Holloway needs to read Hitler-Founder Of Israel by Kardell. Rosenberg, Striecher, Goebbels and Hitler were all judaics. Take a look at a pic of Mengele, Eichman or Hitler and tell what you see. There is not a blonde hair or a blue eye anywhere.

  33. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 2:46 pm

    Sen McCarthy was against US involvement in Korean war.

    Article on Hutton Gibson at tmz–check out the comments

    http://www.tmz.com/2008/06/11/mels-dad-vote-for-ron-paulcalypto

  34. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 3:46 pm

    Dietrich– It is far to late to do anything about what is happening inthe world at this time. Until the events of 1517, 1789, 1870 and 1914 there actually was an organisation on this Earth that kept the judaics from running everything–that’s right it was the Catholic Church. At this point all one can do is save your soul as I do believe Divine intervention is comming in 2012.

    This is the point of my Galileo posts–to demonstrate the Authority of the Roman Church. The Church was correct to act against Galileo as he demanded acceptance of the now scientifically disproven ideas that the Sun is stationary and in the center of the Universe–these things are wrong even as Earth revolves around the Sun.

    You will not find any reference to the Sun being contained in a seperate system in De Revolutionibus. The idea of the Solar system does not begin to appear until after Newton in the early 18th century. Copernicus himself suspected that his idea of the Sun being stationary could well be wrong: at that time the state of scientific knowledge could not conceive of both bodies being in motion.

  35. Wolf on August 3rd, 2008 4:49 pm

    I have heard word of an amazing astronomical discovery by our very own roscoe.

    Is it true roscoe that you have observed Klingons in motion around Uranus?

  36. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 5:10 pm

    That’s an old one……..The end of the Weber interview cut off; it seems as if he thinks Arabs did 9/11.

  37. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 5:54 pm

    It is the alleged ‘Paperclip’ Nazi(in truth a Communist double agent) Rheinhard Gehlen who feeds Germany the soft estimates of Russian military might; Hitler lapped it up. It seems as if Weber tries to paint a favorable picture of The lunatic Adolf.

    Next time maybe Shankus can ask Weber about the murder of Dolfuss and the Hitler was a judaic charge.

  38. David Holloway on August 3rd, 2008 9:24 pm

    roscoe is an example of everything that is wrong with the patriot movement, too many outlandish conspiracy theories which can’t be proven. Anyone who believes that Nazis who were secret Jews allowed themselves to be hung at Nuremberg for the sake of Israel is in outer space.

  39. David Holloway on August 3rd, 2008 9:26 pm

    Don’t be too hard on Mark Weber, he is not an expert on 9-11.

  40. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 9:49 pm

    The Big shots weren’t even indicted at Nuremberg and for that matter we don’t even know who was actually executed.

    Take a look at Eichman–this mans features have judaic written all over him; same with Mengele. Rosenberg and Striecher hated the Catholic Church–as for Striecher, his operation was just a re-run of Leo Taxil.

  41. roscoe on August 3rd, 2008 11:10 pm

    The topic under discussion on KFI LA the last hour was whether the birth certificate of Obomba is legitimate. Mc Cain also was not technically born in US as Canal Zone doesn’t qualify. A Supreme ct ruling that opens the door to this(if true) would clear the way for A. Schwarzenegger to be Pres.

    Drudge is reporting that Obomba is now ready to count all FLA and MICH Delegates.

  42. Bob in DC on August 4th, 2008 1:49 am

    Roscoe:

    Conspicuously absent from your compendium of important dates is 1648:

    “… the events of 1517, 1789, 1870 and 1914 …”

    What is your fear of the events ending the 30 Years War — and its lead-up, the 100 Years War, before it?

    14 Bob

  43. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 2:21 am

    My apologies Bob and in truth, 1648 and another one also crossed my mind after the post; that would be the final catastrophe–Usurpation of the throne of St Peter by the anti-christ judaics in 1958.

  44. Peter Schaenk on August 4th, 2008 2:33 am

    “The reason I call Peter a patriotard is that he attributes Hitler’s rise to power as essentially a foreign creation from outside of Germany.”

    You said this, I did not.

    Try again! Better luck next time.

  45. Peter Schaenk on August 4th, 2008 2:50 am

    “You’ve only altered it slightly and instead of American corporations you blame American-Jewish bankers for Hitler coming to power.”

    Once again, you said this, I didn’t.

    Let me make it clear:

    World Zionism (among others) financed Hitler. Deal with it.

    Patriotards blame corporate America because it diverts attention away from the Jews by insinuating “Rich White Guys” supported Hitler.

    I lay blame specifically on Jews when the facts show their culpability. I don’t use code words or paint their involvement with a broad brush by suggesting “All groups are equally bad, etc.”.

    Implicating International Jewish bankers vs American corporations, ie; “Rich White Guys”, is not a “slight difference” but the main difference between Patriotards and Peter Schaenk. It is the difference between dis-information and revelation.

    If you don’t see this difference between my message and every Patriotard on the radio, then I suggest you are either someone who hasn’t listened to many of my programs, extremely dense or a Patriotard who is trolling on this site.

    I will break it down for you:

    Patriotards do three things:

    1.) Divert attention away from the Jews.
    2.) Attack the White race.
    3.) Attack Chrisitanity and organized relgion, while promoting New Age Spirituality.

    If you hear a broadcaster doing one or more of these things, they are usually a Patriotard doing the work of the NWO.

  46. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 3:19 am

    I have had the feeling for a long time that Alex Jones is nothing but a classical liberal. He still thinks Galileo was persecuted by INQ for saying Earth revolves around the Sun. He has also falsely – held Pres McKinley accountable for sinking the Maine when the latter was actually trying to keep us out of the 1898 war.

  47. Peter Schaenk on August 4th, 2008 3:46 am

    Jones is milking the “Sink Bush” crowd in Hollywood by beating the “911 was an inside job” drum.

    The more he associates with this group, the more he becomes like them. This is the secret to his 15 minutes of fame.

    Did I mention that the Hollywood crowd who supports Jones is overwhelmingly Jewish?

  48. David Holloway on August 4th, 2008 3:00 pm

    Okay Peter I’m starting to understand you now. Anything was possible in the era when Hindenberg was still president. Wikipedia says that Max Warburg left Germany in 1938.

  49. David Holloway on August 4th, 2008 3:01 pm

    roscoe, in your opinion why was Galileo persecuted by the church?

  50. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 4:31 pm

    I wasn’t aware that Galileo was persecuted by the Church.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/bb/index.php?a=topic&t=4168

  51. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 4:49 pm

    See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Pastor

    Scroll down for vols avail on pdf. V 19 is reorganisation of the calendar and 25 is the first Galileo encounter with INQ–see contents.

    In the end, The Galileo case is not even about astronomy. I would not suggest von Pastor’s reporting on Galileo’s 2nd encounter with INQ in 1633 as it is not accurate(v25)

  52. Wolf on August 4th, 2008 9:18 pm

    During the time of Galileo the Catholic Church had long since allowed Greek philosophy to influence its theology. They interpreted certain passages in the Bible through the lens of incorrect Greek astronomical theories like the belief that all heavenly bodies revolve exclusively around the earth, or “geocentricism”. The church couldn’t see that the traditional beliefs Galileo opposed ultimately belonged to Aristotle, not to biblical teaching.

    The minor quibble about whether Galileo believed the sun therefore must be at the center of the universe is a smoke screen roscoe throws up in a vain effort to divert us from the larger issue; the infallibility of church leaders.

    The lesson for the Church is clear, the lesson for roscoe is beware of getting duped by a particular interpretation of Scripture and/or a scientific model and/or historical account, which may be bullshit.

  53. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 9:50 pm

    Keeping the discussion strictly to astronomy, Galileo is really an insignificant character. All he did was to endorse Copernicanism and so his ideas were nothing new. The concept of the Earth revolving around the Sun was used to calculate the Gregorian Calendar which is used by almost all of mankind today so it is wrong to say the Church was wedded to Geocentrism as an infallible belief.

    It is Galileo’s quantum physics that really get him in trouble with INQ when he publishes the Assayer(Il Saggiatore) in 1624.

    The qualitative physics of Aristotle are even today superior to the quantitative physics of Pythagoras, Galileo and Einstien. If Aristotle was wrong about geocentrism, he is entitled to a mistake seeing as how there was no scientific proof available at that time.

    And Aristotle’s qualitative physics were thoroughly reconciled with scripture and Tradition by St Thomas.

  54. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 9:57 pm

    And the prev poster does not understand that Papal infallibility applies only to matters of faith and morals that are defined by the Primacy of Rome–not matters of of scientific or historical controversy–although Rome is usually correct in this field also.

  55. Wolf on August 4th, 2008 10:40 pm

    Copernicus was invited to take part in the studies to reform the calendar but did not participate at the conference in person. His opinion was that the existing models of the universe were inadequate to create a “long term calendar” which would be synchronized with the seasons.

    While it is true that Copernicus provided important astronomical measurements for the reform, the Church by no means abandoned their prevailing geocentric paradigm.

    Closer inspection reveals that the new calendar is simply a tweak to the existing Julian calendar; removing 10 days to synchronize it with the seasons at the time and then suppressing a leap year three times every four hundred years.

    Good enough but hardly a scientific breakthrough.

  56. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 10:47 pm

    have you actually read De Revolutionibus–or at least the first 11 chaps of book 1 where the gen Theory is set out?

  57. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 11:27 pm

    It is an old tactic of the boy who cried wolf to misrepresent. I think what he is trying to infer is that there was some sort of ex Cathedra pronouncement from Rome that demanded adherence to the idea that the Sun rev around the Earth. There simply never was any such thing.

    The reorganisation of the calendar had been contemmplated for many years–at least over a hunderd. There certainly was more than 1 conferecnce about it over that period.

    Simply a tweak of the old Julian calendar is a description I would not use–it is more than that.

    The fact is that the idea that the Earth rev around the Sun is a principle used in the computation of the Gregorian Calendar. So the Church could not stay exclusively with a ‘geocentric’ theory as it would be hypocritical.

    At the time of Galileo controversy, there simply had not been discovered any scientific proof of what we know of Copernicanism today–that while it is in part correct it is overall incorrect.

  58. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 11:47 pm

    One was free to say Sun-Earth or Earth-Sun. It is further indicative of Galileo’s nefarious mission that he was the one who demanded adherence to Copernican ideas without tolerance the other way around: it was this obstinacy and abraisiveness that alerted the Authorities to him–not the ideas that had been already published and tolerated for 73 yrs. This brings us to 1616.

  59. roscoe on August 4th, 2008 11:59 pm

    And Giordano Bruno was not executed because he said Earth around Sun; nor for speculating on whether there might be other life in the Universe. He was executed for being exactly what the boy who cried wolf is–an obstinate heretic.

  60. Dietrich on August 5th, 2008 12:13 am

    re: taking a ‘Catholic turn’

    In the interest of full disclosure, I, HNIC @ VoR was raised Southern Baptist, and am now a strong non-believer. I respect religion, and I’m pretty sure that any successful revolutionary movement in the US will consist mostly of Christians. I don’t like the judeo-eastern philosophical basis of Christianity, but that would never stop me from sharing a foxhole with anyone because of their faith.

  61. roscoe on August 5th, 2008 12:46 am

    I am vaugely familiar with the pagan philosopher R.(I) P.Oliver and he is pretty much a decendant of Bruno–an obstinate heretic in denial of Reavealed truth. The conception of Christianity as somehow ‘judeo-eastern’ is beyond anything I can comprehend–Communism and Naziism OK

  62. roscoe on August 5th, 2008 1:06 am

    Correction to my above post on von Pastor and Galileo. The last line should discourage against vol 29 not 25.

  63. Wolf on August 5th, 2008 1:59 am

    “In Science the authority embodied in the opinion of thousands is not worth a spark of reason in one man.” - Galileo Galilei

  64. Zelea on August 5th, 2008 5:28 am

    Roscoe, Dr. Oliver’s lectures on race, Communism and liberalism are some of the best one can ever hear, do not let his anti-Christian turn which happened late in life cloud all of his work.

  65. Dietrich on August 5th, 2008 11:50 am

    “The conception of Christianity as somehow ‘judeo-eastern’ is beyond anything I can comprehend . . . “

    Really? Christ was a Jew, and Christianity was founded in the East. Pre-Christian to Christian philosophy was a move from tough-minded realism to comforting faiths.

    The Christians were also criticized by the Romans as hating the rest of humanity. Does that sound like anyone we know?

    The chart here does pretty well:
    http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/WesternOrigins.htm

  66. Zelea on August 5th, 2008 1:54 pm
  67. roscoe on August 5th, 2008 2:48 pm

    Thank you Zelea; the doctrine of Holy Church is that Jesus is decended on his mothers side from the tribe of Judah(seed of David) that certainly does not make him a ‘jew’ as we know them today–far from it.

    It is also incorrect to say that the judaics are Gods chosen. The original covenant to evangelise mankind was given to either ancient Hebrews or Semites( I am not sure which). The tribe of Judah does not come along until quite some time after this.

    The idea that Christianity is somehow ‘judeo-eastern’ can never make sense.

  68. roscoe on August 5th, 2008 2:51 pm

    The pagan Mac Donald unfortunatly follows Bruno and Oliver when he tries to seperate Christianity from Western Culture–a bigger mistake cannot be made.

  69. roscoe on August 5th, 2008 3:25 pm

    It is also important to remember that King David himself was actually born of a ‘gentile’ mother–Ruth the Moabite. He was ‘grafted in’ to the Hebrew covenant.

  70. Dietrich on August 5th, 2008 5:14 pm

    The profound differences in Christianity and pre-Christian western thought are perhaps best illustrated by studying the contortions Roman society went through, not only via Christianity, but at the hands of the many eastern faiths, which in one way set themselves apart from the traditional faiths by explaining the deteriorating social condition away as something to be ignored, as ones “treasures” were to be had in the afterlife. No need to right the wrongs around you, or lead from the front. A feminine / slave outlook, to be sure.

    Christianity is your basic eastern soul-comforting faith. It came from the east, and was dressed up in Roman titles, though it is eastern in its roots since it, you know, came from the east–amongst other pretty damning points of history, such as the methods behind the conversion of European elites (or suckered, depending on perspective).

    Arguing Jesus is pretty pointless since people tend to project onto him whatever they wish. I do know it says he was “King of the Jews,” so he’s got that going for him. Knowing the bit I do about how meticulous the Romans were on keeping records–especially of things like court appearances–I have a hard time believing that Jesus ever existed as a historical figure. His existence, like the holocaust, simply does not hold up under anything resembling impartial scrutiny. But hey, that’s why they call it faith–which is an eastern concept.

    ps I wasn’t aware that K. Mac and R.P. Oliver were pagans. ^o^ Still, the value of the chart is in whether it can be relied upon to reflect reality, not whether K. Mac or R.P. throw salt over their shoulder and worship the genus of the emperor. =D

  71. roscoe on August 5th, 2008 5:36 pm

    If the argument is that Jesus didn’t even exist, then I don’t know what to say. Do Mac Donald and Oliver accept that Jesus even existed?

  72. Zelea on August 5th, 2008 5:52 pm

    “…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms…. To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has ‘again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.’ In recent years, ‘no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus’ or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.”

    Michael Grant, atheist and historian in Jesus: An Historian’s Review of the Gospels

  73. Dietrich on August 6th, 2008 12:25 am

    But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms….

    Polybius died probably 150 years before Jesus. Him describing anything about Jesus would be a rather neat trick. =D

  74. Dietrich on August 6th, 2008 12:28 am

    If the argument is that Jesus didn’t even exist, then I don’t know what to say. Do Mac Donald and Oliver accept that Jesus even existed?

    How in the heck am I supposed to know, and what does it have to do with anything?

  75. Peter Schaenk on August 6th, 2008 4:14 am

    The following passage appears in the Greek version of Antiquities of the Jews xviii 3.3, in the translation of William Whiston:

    “ 3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

    It doesn’t make a lot of sense for Rome to convert to Christianity if there wasn’t ample proof Jesus existed. Obviously, he was a real person or the Empire wouldn’t have converted.

    The obvious retort would be, “They wanted to use Christianity to enslave and control the people”.

    My retort would be ?????????????????????????

    The people weren’t already controlled and enslaved?

    Christianity was a revolutionary religion albeit non-violent at the time. Under it’s guidance, White tribes that were once mortal enemies were brought together to form what we know as Europe today.

    Charlemagne did this as Holy Roman Emperor.

    Lastly,

    The idea that “Jesus didn’t exist” has been a popular one promoted recently by Jews such as Paul Maccabee, It has been used to promote the idea that Paul started the Christian church not Jesus, etc.

    The Jews kept pretty good records along with the Romans.

    The Jews obviously believe Jesus existed, because they use a lot of ink in the Talmud and Zohar denouncing him. It would be much more simple to ignore him altogether if they knew he didn’t exist.

    As usual they are now on both sides of the issue.

  76. Zelea on August 6th, 2008 5:07 am

    Dietrich, re-read the sentence you quoted. Grant is not arguing that Livy and Polybius were contemporaries of Christ.

  77. K-Sensor on August 6th, 2008 6:24 am

    Dietrich I find this site layout very difficult to locate older articles. Example I can’t find the article about donations.

    I wanted to say more about other radio hosts. There are heaps of people out there doing their own shows. It’s such a means to improve your own project, if you could pull in these hosts. This brings the question up about being more accommodating to other’s views.

    He’s a point about other hosts. Think about say Daryl Bradford Smith! He’s broadcasting alone, yet if he come into your project as a host, then not only could he access the managed facilities making his life easier, but you’d also attract a hole new bunch of people to hear alternative views. A flow over.

    If you want success then you have to bring variety and 24 hour access. You may even want to consider advertisers. Without these direction you will be financing this project yourself and with limited scope to listeners.

  78. K-Sensor on August 6th, 2008 6:27 am

    “Dietrich I find this site layout very difficult to locate older articles. Example I can’t find the article about donations.”

    arrr found it on searching “donations” I would have liked to have been able to click find it though using front page or side menus.

  79. Dietrich on August 6th, 2008 2:15 pm

    It doesn’t make a lot of sense for Rome to convert to Christianity if there wasn’t ample proof Jesus existed. Obviously, he was a real person or the Empire wouldn’t have converted.

    They were mostly pagan before and there was no proof of Jupiter existing, right?

    The obvious retort would be, “They wanted to use Christianity to enslave and control the people”.

    I wouldn’t say that it’s obvious. Constantine popularized Christianity at a time when the empire spoke many languages and had many beliefs. The legions he was leading were Christian-heavy, and the “+” sign they drew on themselves was also a Mithric symbol. Roman soldiers loved Mithraism for its masculinity.

    The people weren’t already controlled and enslaved?

    No, I guess not, unless you were a slave or a woman–both conditions laying fertile ground for the spread of Christianity. During the rise of Christianity, Italy probably saw an average of one civil war per generation.

    Christianity was a revolutionary religion albeit non-violent at the time.

    Not as much as we hear about today. It was revolutionary in the sense that it was monotheistic, thus intolerant of other faiths, and it believed in a paradisaical afterlife, something already seen in the Dionysian group, along with bread/wine being the body/blood of their keeper, interestingly enough.

    Under it’s guidance, White tribes that were once mortal enemies were brought together to form what we know as Europe today.

    I would agree with most historians who specialize in the era, both Christian and non, and say that modern Europe is more of a function of Caesar’s Gallic wars and the annihilation of Varus’ legions in the Teutoberg, making England/France/Spain/Italy/Greece/Romania Latin and Germany along with parts north classical.

    Charlemagne did this as Holy Roman Emperor.

    The Holy Roman Empire has basically nothing to do with the Roman Empire. Very common mistake, though.

    The idea that “Jesus didn’t exist” has been a popular one promoted recently by Jews such as Paul Maccabee, It has been used to promote the idea that Paul started the Christian church not Jesus, etc.

    Paul had at least as much to do with the formation of Christianity as Christ. Christianity would have been a lot better off without Paul, I think.

    The Jews kept pretty good records along with the Romans.

    I’m not really that aware of the depth and breadth of the contemporaneous Jewish liturgy, so I’ll take your word for it. I do know that the Romans kept court documents, and we do have them from Pilate’s court, just none about Jesus. Your citation is pretty widely recognised as a forgery from the 14th century, I’m sad to say. Even so, it would have been written at least 60 years after the crucifixion. From the historian’s perspective, the literary data is woeful. Even worse, the archaeological data is basically nil–not counting the hundreds of cases of parts or the whole of “The True Cross” being sold to rich suckers all over Europe for the ensuing 1500 years.

    As usual they are now on both sides of the issue.

    Yep, and I’ve already given the impression that I care way more about it than I do. ;)

  80. Dietrich on August 6th, 2008 2:17 pm

    Dietrich, re-read the sentence you quoted. Grant is not arguing that Livy and Polybius were contemporaries of Christ.

    Right, and if you follow the conversation, you’ll see that I was using the same ridiculous line of reasoning that was being used to counter points I had made.

    bah, nevermind–really.

  81. Dietrich on August 6th, 2008 2:30 pm

    “Dietrich I find this site layout very difficult to locate older articles. Example I can’t find the article about donations.”

    There is a search function at the top-right of literally every page generated by the website.

    You’re right though that I haven’t put a prominent link to it. I am always wrestling with not wanting to push the donation thing too hard. I don’t want to give the wrong impression. We wouldn’t be as sensitive about it if previous radio networks along similar lines seemed to be all about money–constantly hanging the “closing up shop” line over the heads of the listeners. If we close up shop–we won’t–we would simply do it. The support is either there or it’s not. If we are doing our job of making compelling media that causes people to think, we will be supported as long as people know that we operate solely on their donations.

    If people know that we operate on donations and will not give enough, then we have failed and do not deserve to thrive. Our job in crafting this organism is to deserve it.

    In a couple of years, I’ll be done with my doctorate, and will be able to pay all the bills without much of a sweat. As a grad student, however, I pretty much live hand-to-mouth, which is fine, but having to pay for VoR out of pocket would really kick my butt. I’ll do it though. VoR is here to stay regardless. We’ll find a way. This is the struggle of our time, and if we have to be a lone pulse emanating from this cold, judaized planet, so be it. We have decided to fight.

    ps: I think I’ll put a link to that post on the “support VoR” page. Thanks for a heads-up.

  82. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 12:05 am

    Mr Dietrich— my approach has been an attempt to show through a process of historical, physical and scientific truth that the Catholic Church, by virtue of all it has given mankind can be nothing less than God’s Church. I believe this may be known as a form of Scholasticism.

    Ex–one must necessarily tune a musical instrument to the system of the Roman Church in ORDER to create(or attempt to create) music. Do you dig Ravi Sahnkar???? because thats what you have if you don’t conform to the system of Western Civilisation.

    Ex 2–All of what we call civilisation today has adopted the calendar of the Roman Church(in spite of a blatant rejection or ignorance of Her doctrines)because it is the most accurate. In essence, a calendar(clock)is an attempt to define the nature of the relationship between time and space enabling one to organise their lives by coordinating it with the dentist, bus driver etc.

    The point here is this. Do you think these things are an accident? This is what Galileo was really censored for by INQ.–saying that God was not a personal being but an accident.

    And that reminds me, you have never presented any evidence in support of your assertion that Copernicus had a conception of the solar system and you will not because there is none. The point here of course the Church’s treatment of Galileo in all ways has been correct. I just heard Bollyn say in an interview from about 2 mos ago that Galileo showed Holy Church to be in the wrong. He was making a comparison bet Prof Jones and Galileo–sorry fellas. Ciao

  83. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 12:10 am

    Oh I forgot–One of your above statements is that Christianity would have been better off without St Paul. Are you now saying that Jesus did exist??

    And btw what ever happened to the apostle of reason himself–Rousseau. It seems as if no one wants to talk about him any more.

  84. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:16 am

    Alfred Rosenberg had the same idea of St. Paul, no?

  85. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 12:20 am

    And another interesting and largely unknown fav=ctoum concerning the Galileo case, It is Card Borgia and his Spanish faction that is responsible for turning Urban VIII from his liberal ways and demands the final condemnation in 1633. just one example of the great Borgian name(with 1 or 2 exceptions)

    Speaking of Alex VI, von Pastor has cleared him of the orgies in the Vatican stories and I have been able to rehabilitate his character however slightly. The heretic Savanrola heaped abuse on him and was responsible for more htan a few calumnies against this Pope.

  86. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 12:21 am

    i am not following you maurice.

  87. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:23 am

    I read this before. Now I find in internet:

    …regards Christ as one of a long line of Aryan heroes, ranging from Wotan and Siegfried to Wagner and Hitler. Rosenberg “proves” Christ an anti-Semitic descendant of Atlantis….Lagarde, Chamberlain, and Rosenberg are all anti-Old-Testament and anti-church and dub Saint Paul the villain of the drama.

    Saint Paul, according to these three writers, betrayed Jesus by founding his church on that obnoxious Judaism which He died to destroy. Thereby the Christian churches became just one more mask of the Jews, allied with Freemasons, Marxists, Tibetan lamas, and international bankers. The most villainous church of all is the Catholic because it is the most international [pp. 282-3].

    http://www.bedfordgaol.com/book1-IX.html

  88. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:28 am

    Nazional Socialist doctrine.

    http://www.bedfordgaol.com/book1-IX.html

    A few more illuminating comments from the same source are sufficient to explain this unique (and now fortunately extinct) attempt to conform Christianity to a false philosophy of the world. Referring to Alfred Rosenberg, appointed by Hitler in 1934 to be the Director of Party Education in Weltanschauung, Viereck says Rosenberg sought to make Christianity conform to the new revelation of Naziism. Rosenberg

    …regards Christ as one of a long line of Aryan heroes, ranging from Wotan and Siegfried to Wagner and Hitler. Rosenberg “proves” Christ an anti-Semitic descendant of Atlantis….Lagarde, Chamberlain, and Rosenberg are all anti-Old-Testament and anti-church and dub Saint Paul the villain of the drama.

    Saint Paul, according to these three writers, betrayed Jesus by founding his church on that obnoxious Judaism which He died to destroy. Thereby the Christian churches became just one more mask of the Jews, allied with Freemasons, Marxists, Tibetan lamas, and international bankers. The most villainous church of all is the Catholic because it is the most international [pp. 282-3].

  89. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:31 am

    strange… I don’t see my post. But a message says I’ve already posted.

  90. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:33 am

    a message from VOR says:
    “Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!”
    But where is it?

  91. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:34 am

    This is Nazional Socialist doctrine.

    http://www.bedfordgaol.com/book1-IX.html

    A few more illuminating comments from the same source are sufficient to explain this unique (and now fortunately extinct) attempt to conform Christianity to a false philosophy of the world. Referring to Alfred Rosenberg, appointed by Hitler in 1934 to be the Director of Party Education in Weltanschauung, Viereck says Rosenberg sought to make Christianity conform to the new revelation of Naziism. Rosenberg

    …regards Christ as one of a long line of Aryan heroes, ranging from Wotan and Siegfried to Wagner and Hitler. Rosenberg “proves” Christ an anti-Semitic descendant of Atlantis….Lagarde, Chamberlain, and Rosenberg are all anti-Old-Testament and anti-church and dub Saint Paul the villain of the drama.

    Saint Paul, according to these three writers, betrayed Jesus by founding his church on that obnoxious Judaism which He died to destroy. Thereby the Christian churches became just one more mask of the Jews, allied with Freemasons, Marxists, Tibetan lamas, and international bankers. The most villainous church of all is the Catholic because it is the most international [pp. 282-3].

  92. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:35 am

    Nazional Socialist doctrine.

    A few more illuminating comments from the same source are sufficient to explain this unique (and now fortunately extinct) attempt to conform Christianity to a false philosophy of the world. Referring to Alfred Rosenberg, appointed by Hitler in 1934 to be the Director of Party Education in Weltanschauung, Viereck says Rosenberg sought to make Christianity conform to the new revelation of Naziism. Rosenberg

    …regards Christ as one of a long line of Aryan heroes, ranging from Wotan and Siegfried to Wagner and Hitler. Rosenberg “proves” Christ an anti-Semitic descendant of Atlantis….Lagarde, Chamberlain, and Rosenberg are all anti-Old-Testament and anti-church and dub Saint Paul the villain of the drama.

    Saint Paul, according to these three writers, betrayed Jesus by founding his church on that obnoxious Judaism which He died to destroy. Thereby the Christian churches became just one more mask of the Jews, allied with Freemasons, Marxists, Tibetan lamas, and international bankers. The most villainous church of all is the Catholic because it is the most international [pp. 282-3].

  93. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:36 am
  94. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 12:36 am

    Fr Parsons==Some Lies And Errors Of History pg 86.

    ‘Only later did better minds understand that faith fears no learning; that historic criticism can be independent and impartial without becomming irreligious……( indeed to say that natural science or historical truth cannot be reconciled with scripture and tradition of the Church is a heresy) ……….A denunciation(author is referring to 1633 here) was made to INQ tribunal that Galileo or his deciples had asserted that God is an accident and not a substance(Transubstantiation), a personal being; that miracles are not miracles at all. Then the Pontiff declared that for the termination of the scandal, Galileo should be cited and admonished by the Sacred Congregation.’

  95. maurice on August 7th, 2008 12:36 am

    from
    bedfordgaol.com/book1-IX.html

  96. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 12:55 am
  97. Zelea on August 7th, 2008 5:32 am

    To make national socialism contingent upon the opinions of Rosenberg is a straw man. NS is an political theory that is neutral with respect to religious opinion, in essence it is almost identical to the distributism and ruralism of Chesterton and Belloc.

    I see no conflict between Christianity and NS because I reject the false, Manichaean paradigm of secular vs. religious truth.

  98. Dietrich on August 7th, 2008 1:54 pm

    Mr Dietrich— my approach has been an attempt to show through a process of historical, physical and scientific truth that the Catholic Church, by virtue of all it has given mankind can be nothing less than God’s Church. I believe this may be known as a form of Scholasticism.

    I think you have the wrong word.

    Ex–one must necessarily tune a musical instrument to the system of the Roman Church in ORDER to create(or attempt to create) music. Do you dig Ravi Sahnkar???? because thats what you have if you don’t conform to the system of Western Civilisation.

    I’m not really a good person for that example, since A)I am a lifelong musician B)Went to music school C)studied India raga, and even own a very fine set of hand-made tablas from India. So I think here again you open the door into your face. What you’re trying to do here, it seems, is contrast western music with eastern music, the most profound difference to the casual observer being that western is based on even-tempered scales, thanks to the well-known Catholic Saint Pythagoras (575-500BCE).

    Accurate on what basis? A calendar is only as useful as the agreement of everyone to follow it. Our Gregorian calendar is a slight adjustment of the Julian (Caesarian) calendar, which is a pretty simple reform of the tropical calendar, which is determined by observing planetary motion–something that could get you in trouble with a corrupt and tyrannical Catholic Church. Perhaps I am being too harsh. After all, Julius Caesar was Pontifex Maximus!

    The point here is this. Do you think these things are an accident? This is what Galileo was really censored for by INQ.–saying that God was not a personal being but an accident.

    Yes, I am familiar with the teleological argument for the existence of God, and no I don’t think our making of a calendar is an accident. I use a systems approach (along with what seems to me to be a far broader perspective that does not merely begin in 0C.E.), so I look at this and note that calendars have been around for a long time, and those who did not make them starved and died while those who did at least did not starve because they failed to understand when to plant and when to harvest.

    And that reminds me, you have never presented any evidence in support of your assertion that Copernicus had a conception of the solar system and you will not because there is none.

    Ouch. Now you’re starting to make me think that people are right about you. =D

    Galileo spent the last decade or so of his life under house arrest because a tyrannical and corrupt Catholic Church got involved outside the realm of superstition and tried to control other realms such as the scientific and political and was, as usual, smacked down by reality. There’s a reason the Roman Church has nothing resembling the power it once had, and the overriding one is that it has been proven wrong on basically every point that can yet be proven. Churches should stick with guy-in-the-sky stuff and leave the cold facts to the adults.

    But let’s see if you stick with your convictions, or if they were merely constructed after a pre-supposed set of beliefs: You claim the Church is of God because it correctly predicts/reflects nature. Well, seeing as though it’s easily demonstrated that the original J.C. (Julius Caesar) had more to do with the evolution of our modern calendar than any Christian, ever, let’s have a look at a guy who wrote about atomic physics and about the tendencies built into nature on an atomic and sub-atomic level which closely reflect the way we understand them today. Google and read about Saint Lucretius (100-55BCE) who did all of this, the piece de resistance being that it was written in iambic hexameter! BTW, The Church also slandered him, but after his death. Very classy.

    “Freedom of belief is pernicious. It is nothing but the freedom to be wrong.”

    -Cardinal Bellarmine

    “To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin.”

    Cardinal Bellarmine, during the trial of Galileo, 1615

    “In 1992, Pope John Paul II (reluctantly) formally apologized for the persecution of Galileo. They finally admitted that they, the Catholic Church and all the Popes since the beginning of the Church, were wrong, and that Galileo was right. For fifteen hundred years they had argued that every word in the bible was true– that it was the perfect word of God, true in it’s history and in all of its sciences. They were wrong. They threatened, tortured and killed people who disagreed with this error in the most brutal ways imaginable.”

    They were wrong, you are wrong–for your own good, please just stay down.

  99. Dietrich on August 7th, 2008 2:07 pm

    Thank you for cancelling my post. It was rather too big indeed. And I don’t believe in the masonic “libertè”. The forum is yours and you keep the posts you want.

    I think I’ve cancelled a single post since enabling the comments, and that was because it had far more misspellings than content in its two sentences. Even so, I held it in the queue for a few days in case I had a better idea of what to do with it.

    When I wrote the disclaimer about comments not being constructive, I was thinking of people who made us look stupid, quite possibly on purpose, as I have caught on other boards.

    I caught this peeve from a friend of mine, but I can hardly tolerate people who spell “definitely” incorrectly, or confuse “lose” and “loose” as in, “looser.” “Their,” “they’re” and “there” go here as well. I think the one post I ever hosed had all of these mistakes, and I simply couldn’t turn it.

  100. Peter Schaenk on August 7th, 2008 4:51 pm

    Amen, brother.

  101. roscoe on August 7th, 2008 5:03 pm

    Pythagoras did have something to do with the definition of music but only in its primitive state–It is the Catholic monk Guido of Arezzo in the 12th Century who refines the musical scale in its final scientific state that we use today–source; Fr Parsons==Studies In Church History v2. And I am not aware that Pythagoras has been made a saint by Holy Church–What is reference for that? The fact is that musical instruments must be tuned to the system of Western Civilisation–the Catholic Church in order to resonate completly.

    ‘A calendar is only as useful as the agreement to follow it’ ==Well everyone IS following it

    Can you give a source on Card Bellarmine saying it is erronious to say Earth revolves around Sun–I have never read that. Galileo was not put on trial until 1633. 1616 is the correct date for his first admonition not to hold Copernicanism not 1615–And Copernicanism is a false doctrine(although 1 part of it is correct); science has now proven that . The Sun is in motion and I believe that has everything to do with 2012.

    And an anti-pope apologising for the Galileo saga carries no weight with those of us who follow the true Pope.

    And btw maurice–excellent work on the judaic Rosenberg

  102. Dietrich on August 7th, 2008 8:38 pm

    Pythagoras did have something to do with the definition of music but only in its primitive state–It is the Catholic monk Guido of Arezzo in the 12th Century who refines the musical scale in its final scientific state that we use today–source; Fr Parsons==Studies In Church History v2.

    From what Google’s saying, I think you’re confusing modern staff notation with “scale.” Or maybe your source is. You’re talking about the way music sounds, evenness of the tones and such. That doesn’t have anything to do with your Guido, it seems, other than the fact that he systematized a way to write the tones out on paper. Even a search of that page for “temper” yields a single result–talking about the differing psychological temperaments of singers. lol. Pretty ballsy arguing something I’m betting you don’t know much about, technically. You get points for that, honestly.

    And I am not aware that Pythagoras has been made a saint by Holy Church–What is reference for that?

    I keed, I keed. You maintain, against the tide of references, and someone who knows better wasting time providing a more sophisticated exposition on the matter, that Christianity has something to do with the “evenness” of the scale. Since I clearly remember that being Pythagoras taking an octave and halving it three times, providing the 12-tone even-tempered scale, I give you a patronizing ribbing that Pythagoras must be some type of Catholic saint. Still, Durant wrote that ancient deification and “modern” sainthood used the same term, or root word, genus, and Pythagoras was probably deified at one point or another by the Roman State.

    The fact is that musical instruments must be tuned to the system of Western Civilisation–the Catholic Church in order to resonate completly.

    Oh, but they don’t. This has to do with “temper.” This is why different keys have different characteristics–after all, with perfectly even tempering, a major key should be a major key, no matter which note plays root. Don’t really have time for a lesson, but THIS has a great read on temper (start at #6 Intonation).

    ‘A calendar is only as useful as the agreement to follow it’ ==Well everyone IS following it

    This isn’t what you said though. You like to win more than you like to be right, it seems. You said it was obviously godly since it described nature, but God or Christians aren’t quite responsible for it beyond small adjustments, and really, it’s not at all perfect if you have to come up with a rhyme to count how many days are in a particular month, and most don’t even know the rhyme past the first two lines! I won’t even touch on the fact that super-accurate timekeeping devices have to be adjusted periodically to account for the slowing of Earth’s rotation. I think Bellarmine has turned enough in his catacomb, what with the vast evidence that the only thing extraordinary about Earth’s position in the universe is that it’s extraordinarily average–on an average arm of an average galaxy, 2/3rds or so of the way out, in an average local group, etc etc.

    Can you give a source on Card Bellarmine saying it is erronious to say Earth revolves around Sun–I have never read that. Galileo was not put on trial until 1633.

    If only you had an information box that was hooked up to a giant . . . web of other information boxes, and there was some way to search all of that. We can dream, no?

    And an anti-pope apologising for the Galileo saga carries no weight with those of us who follow the true Pope.

    Oh? Who’s that? (please say Mel Gibson)

  103. roscoe on August 8th, 2008 12:01 am

    Acc to the Catholic faith I believe in, Dietrich is a heretic. As a historian though I still enjoy debating history with him as opposed to those at the old Forum.

    One problem he has seems to be that he cannot seperate the THREE elements of Copernicanism enought to facilitate an understanding of the Galileo case. There was no scientific proof of anything at the time and it was GALILEO who was demanding that the hypothetical Copernicus be accepted as Dogma.

    Dietrich has failed to give a source for his allegation about Card Bellarmines statement.

    As far as Guido, his source says he is responsible for more than just notation–it says he contrbuted ‘ a few other things’. Modern music has evolved out of the ancient Church modes–yes Pythagoras was aware of the system. I would be willing to bet that the monks refinement of modern diatonic harmony is the one responsible for the way a piano is tuned today.

  104. roscoe on August 8th, 2008 12:06 am

    At least I think Pythagoras was aware of the ancient church modes– I am just guessing there

  105. Dietrich on August 11th, 2008 4:26 pm

    One problem he has seems to be that he cannot seperate the THREE elements of Copernicanism enought to facilitate an understanding of the Galileo case. There was no scientific proof of anything at the time and it was GALILEO who was demanding that the hypothetical Copernicus be accepted as Dogma.

    Yes Roscoe, the church guys were merely concerned about the scientific correctness–sort of like how the Jews put historians in prison for having a different version of the holocaust. They’re just concerned about the scientific / historical correctness, yes? Surely, it has nothing to do with the fact that–in both cases–the guiding dogma of the day depends on the powers that be being right, and they’ll mow down whomever they have to in order to maintain.

    I think you saying that Galileo was demanding that Copernicus be accepted as dogma is laughable, as he wasn’t in a position to, oh, put people under house arrest for the rest of their lives over it. You see, your stuff here doesn’t pass the smell test. Even if what you said was true, he didn’t imprison anyone. The Church did. Or are you disputing this as well?

    That’s what you are missing, Roscoe. “A” is tyrannical if it puts “B” into prison for scientific observations. This is at least part of what the Protestants didn’t like about the Catholics coming to the US–too much subservience to power. If someone jails you for something you write, they’re a tyrant. It doesn’t even matter if what you wrote was factually incorrect. It’s amazing that this point even needs to be made, and yet here we are.

    And no, you’re basically 100% wrong on the music stuff, even after backing up several times.

    Also, I’m not a heretic. A Protestant or a Coptic would fall under that category.

  106. roscoe on August 11th, 2008 5:43 pm

    My apology for referring to you as a heretic–you are merely a gentile(someone living outside the lexicon of the Roman Church)

    A few comments on the Galileo trial chronology. The date 1543 is left out and the book De Revolutionibus(that you have not even read) which is published that year not even mentioned. The institution of the Gregorian Calendar(which uses the idea that the Earth revolves around Sun) in 1582 is also left out of the chronology. A couple of glaring omissions I would say. It is at least correct in saying Bruno was executed for heresy.

    1612–Galileo’s discovery of the sunspots prove the Sun ROTATES not revolves on its axis.

    You are correct that Galileo demanding Copernicus be accepted as dogma is laughable. Never the less that is what he did and this attracted the attention of INQ. Copernicanism is a false doctrine and remains so today.

    And Galileo was never imprisoned or tortured by the INQ–his house arrest( a most lenient punishment) was only after 1633.

  107. roscoe on August 11th, 2008 5:55 pm

    Fr Parsons–Studies In Church History v2 pg7
    ‘That music may be now called a science is due to Guido of Arezzo who in 1124 determined the scale, hitherto uncertain. His solmisation, or the use of the ut, re, mi, fa, sol, la was signified by means of the words of the first verses of the Vesper Hymn for the Feast of the Baptist.’

  108. roscoe on August 11th, 2008 7:03 pm

    When Fr Parsons say that the monk ‘determined the scale’ he is referring to the definition of diatonic harmony—

    a(atonement) ==440 cps(hz)
    a#==466cps
    b==494cps
    c==523cps
    c#==554cps
    etc

    The Church had no reason to indict Galileo in 1616 for speculating that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Copernicus book saying that had been published 73 yrs before.

    Galileo was a very arrogant, abraisive man who believe it or not actually was DEMANDING that Copernicanism be accepted as fact when there was as of yet no scientific proof. This is indeed laughable as you say but it is indeed what happened.

    And i would like to know how Dietrich expects to be considered an authority on the Galileo case without having even read book 1 of De Revolutionibus?

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